Conversion & Community in Kyrgyzstan
Forum 18 reports on turmoil surrounding the burial of a 14 year old Baptist convert in Kyrgyzstan. In short, following the boy’s death, his family and 20 fellow Baptists planned to bury the boy in a plot of land in their village, Kulanak, that authorities had set aside as a graveyard for Baptists. The local imam and a group of locals prevented the family from burying the body in the village. The head of the district akimat told the family that “they should have thought about the consequences” of becoming Baptists and refused to assist the family. The chief of police and prosecutor urged the family to renounce their faith or turn their son’s body over to his grandfather, who is still Muslim. Meanwhile, a mob formed around the family’s house. Police intervened, took the boy’s body, and buried him 25 miles away in what the family described as “a disrespectful manner.”
The press-secretary of Naryn’s Akim, opined that the state has allowed too many religious groups to operate, and that incidents such as the one described above are the consequences of allowing too much religious freedom. She called on the national government to curb the activities of “religious sects.” The district prosecutor is doing what he can in Naryn district, pledging to reverse the 2006 decision to set aside land for Baptist burials in Kulanak.
While I have a hard time criticizing a government, on principle, for allowing too much freedom of personal conviction, I concur that these incidents are more or less a given considering how deeply intertwined Islam is in Central Asian identities. To abandon Islam is equivalent to abandoning the community. And given this, one can at least understand the community’s perspective on allowing a Christian burial in Kulanak while still reserving sympathy for the family.
We have talked about these issues before, and it is obvious there are no easy answers. Restrictions on proselytizing and conversion like those found in Uzbekistan are just a few steps short of state-definition of what is and is not acceptable religious practice, period (as also found in Uzbekistan). And there are anecdotal data that many of those in Central Asia who do convert are marginalized to begin with. It would be fair to assume that conversion exacerbates community divisions, but it is impossible to say that they create them. It’s certainly something that could benefit from more study.
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Tags: Kyrgyzstan, Religion.
Posted by Nathan on June 2nd, 2008
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Comments
Time: 6/3/2008, 4:29 am
“And there are anecdotal data that many of those in Central Asia who do convert are marginalized to begin with.”
IMO there’s another side on that too: not a few of the ethnic Kyrgyz who work for international organisations or for the US bases in Bishkek and Bagram are Christian converts. There are also reports (though still to be confirmed) that some of the recruitment channels run via Christain sect networks.
Time: 6/3/2008, 6:51 am
“To abandon Islam is equivalent to abandoning the community. And given this, one can at least understand the community’s perspective on allowing a Christian burial in Kulanak while still reserving sympathy for the family.”
I would actually disagree that one can understand the community particularly well on this. This seems like one of the few cases where I don’t see where any harm comes to the community for allowing a Christian burial. Nobody is asking the community to come to this burial or do anything. I don’t see the issue and I think it is particularly insensitive (and cowardly) to antagonize or harass a family who has lost a 13 year old boy. The consequences of choosing another faith are having your whole families’ corpses unburied? Or buried by police perfunctly? That’s a bit strict.
Time: 6/3/2008, 7:01 am
Forum18 doesn’t make it particularly clear, but it sounds like the land set aside for Christian burials in Kulanak was in or near the existing graveyard. If so, it is a fairly big deal to bury a non-Muslim there.
I agree that it is strict and insensitive, but it is a fairly common norm in Kyrgyzstan.
Time: 6/3/2008, 7:46 am
“I don’t see the issue and I think it is particularly insensitive (and cowardly) to antagonize or harass a family who has lost a 13 year old boy.”
There I agree. At the individual, human level of things this story is very sad. It shows however where it has come to. It’s not about “freedom of choice of religion” as this Kadyrova of the FTI thinks. She should now that…
Time: 6/3/2008, 9:58 am
Turgai Sangar certainly clarifies the great danger of the evangelical missionaries. So much for freedom of religion and conscience.
Also I had no idea that “liberal NGOs” were promoting prostitution and homosexuality.
Time: 6/3/2008, 8:22 pm
“While I have a hard time criticizing a government, on principle, for allowing too much freedom of personal conviction, I concur that these incidents are more or less a given considering how deeply intertwined Islam is in Central Asian identities.”
I agree with this sentiment, but the degree to which Islam is intertwined with Central Asian identities varies by location. In Almaty I new numerous Muslim-to-Christian converts (Kazakh, Uighur and Kyrgyz), who were well accepted by Muslim family members and society in general. I realize that is merely anecdotal evidence, but it seemed to hold true. Obviously urban centers, especially a metropolitan city such as Almaty, differ from the countryside in religious attitudes, but it is an important distinction to make.
Strangely, I was proselytized by Jehovah’s Witnesses in both Almaty and Baku while I was there…. What are the odds?
Time: 6/5/2008, 5:13 am
Nathan, Thanks for the interesting post (and one that reverses a bit of the slide into South Asia that this blog seems to have taken).
I personally am no fan of missionaries. I consider them to be by definition intolerant, and their attempts to ingratiate themselves with local communities as akin to trickery. Yet the paradox is that I don’t see this justifying intolerance toward converts.
On the question of how closely religion and culture — even ethnicity — are intertwined, James makes a good point, that it differs from place to place. To some Central Asians, you might as well ask them to change their skin color as ask them to change their religion — it’s barely conceivable. I’d always thought that Bishkek(ians?) generally wore their religion a lot more lightly, and if they could get fabulous prizes for converting, why not? Like going to a timeshare presentation.
And I can’t resist asking Sangar to name these liberal NGOs are who encourage prostitution. Perhaps you’re confusing them with the local ministry of internal affairs? Tashkent has very few NGOs these days, yet prostitution seems to be one of the few boom areas of the economy.
Time: 6/6/2008, 8:01 am
“I’d always thought that Bishkek(ians?) generally wore their religion a lot more lightly, and if they could get fabulous prizes for converting, why not? Like going to a timeshare presentation.”
I think that you take that quite lighly, Tolkun, yet reality right under the surface is more tragic. In the same vein, some “Bishkekians”, or some people in other places for that matter, don’t mind selling girl relatives into prostitution if they could get fabulous prizes. It merely shows the depths of bestialisation (and that’s what somebody who I know well and who grew up in Bishkek says) a.k.a. “liberalism at work in KG” which happens in part of these societies. A mixture of short term greed and almost infantile gullibility. Is it that what you want, Tolkun? Problem is, that many Kyrgyz don’t realize yet that if they continue to indulge that, they will be left with nothing in the end. Those who have lured/encouraged them to lower themselves for peanuts will not “save” or respect them.
And please, save me all those lectures on “poverty” and “hard times”. It’s more than that. I have been in many communities in other parts of the world that went through even harder times yet didn’t degenerated that way.
Also, it’s not a matter of being against Christians here. They and the Jews are Ahl’ Al-Kitap, people of the Book. It’s about a sordid form of subjugation and destruction of people.
“And I can’t resist asking Sangar to name these liberal NGOs are who encourage prostitution.”
In KG, that is basically most Western-funded local and international NGO working with prostitutes under one or another pretext. You seem to be knowledgeable about the region and/or from the region, so you know who and what I mean. Of course their statutes and programmes will say nothing about ”promoting/encouraging prostitution”. But you have to look at the effect and/or the hidden agendas.
Some even do it out of ignorance and clumsyness. I personally know an example of a European NGO who ran an HIV prevention programme in Southern KG that to close down after they were accused by a number of communities to support prostitution. Problem was, that their clumsy, taken-of-granted advocacy campaigns AND the personal behaviour of some of theirs expats effectively came down to that.
“Tashkent has very few NGOs these days, yet prostitution seems to be one of the few boom areas of the economy.”
It’s structured differently in Tashkent. There it is controlled and promoted by, ahem, “somebody close to higher spheres” (those who rightly guess who win a two-week romantic cruise for 2 in the Aral Sea), by South Koreans and by certain Europeans.
Time: 6/7/2008, 7:18 am
Not to pick a fight, but two comments.
First, I was referring to Central Asians converting to Christianity in order to get jobs, study abroad, etc. Since many people particularly large-city dwellers aren’t particularly religious to begin with, I wonder if they don’t mind changing their religion to get ahead. Many Tajiks in Uzstan, Karakalpaks in Kazstan, etc., will change the nationality on their passports if it gets them ahead.
On NGOs who encourage prostitution, I asked you to name them, and you said I know them. I plead ignorance. In Tashkent, the rules are different than in Bishkek. (Because outside of Uzbekistan, the police forces of the former Soviet U are actively fighting prostitution, only to be foiled by NGOs? Maybe the NGOs are into drug trafficking too.) It would seem to me that there’s little behind your argument, other than a general anti-Western sentiment.
Time: 6/8/2008, 10:33 pm
I wonder if Dolkum has ever had a real conversation with one of the “Christian missionaries” he seems to have such a bad attitude toward? Are they really all “by definition intolerant, and their attempts to ingratiate themselves with local communities as akin to trickery.”?
As a Christian anthropologist I would strongly challenge that statement. If you had been a bit more intellectually honest and qualified the statement with “some Evangelical missionaries are…” then I would have nothing to take you to task for. But as your comments stands you show that you are as intolerant as you accuse the missionaries of being.
Time: 6/9/2008, 3:36 am
I did have a conversation with one once, but I was drunk, so maybe I’m misremembering.
I think it went something like this. “You’re adult, seemingly intelligent, yet you worship a false God. Nothing personal, it’s just that you’re ancestors and society have misled you.”
So how can a missionary be culturally sensitive if by definition his or her job is to change a fundamental part of my belief system and culture? I’m not saying missionaries are personally bad people, but they’re certainly not what I’d consider cultural preservationists.
Time: 6/9/2008, 7:54 am
“It would seem to me that there’s little behind your argument, other than a general anti-Western sentiment.”
I expected that, Dolkun.
But lay rest assured that I know what I’m talking about (i.e. this is no primal West-bashing but first-hand experience) and that I’m confident enough about it, even if I don’t mention names of organisations *and* individuals (pointless for the moment).
Time: 6/9/2008, 9:16 pm
Some parts of the discussion, particularly, aboun NGOs encouraging prostitution, reminded me of a recent peport I’ve read about UN aid workers and peace keeping forces sexually abusing childred and using child sex slaves in the countries they were working.
Time: 6/9/2008, 11:48 pm
Again, referring to the numerous Christian converts I met in Central Asia, none of them seemed to convert for any benefits other than spiritual ones. The Christian converts I encountered in Central Asia converted as a matter of conscience.
It is instructive to remember that once upon a time, Central Asians for one reason or another, chose Islam. It is not part of the Central Asian genetic make up. Central Asians, like the rest of humanity, have accepted and discarded various religions numerous times over the course of history. Given the choice, they will undoubtedly continue to do so.
Time: 6/10/2008, 2:50 am
OK James, since you libertwats always like to pontificate about ‘freedom’ and ‘choices’, here’s the choice that the Central Asians face:
*get their act together, get respect and face global reality heads up and for that Islam is maybe not ‘the’ solution but an indispenable part;
*or else, becoming third rank banana republics that are mere providers of raw materials, cheap labour and flesh for the sex traffic, and promoting drugs, alcoholism and being brainwashed by evangelical sects (who are to turn the Central Asians into good litt’lhouse negroes who learned manners) is part of that design.
Which is maybe what James and the likes want?
What you obviously don’t understand James is, that Islam is not merely something folkloristic or some new age fad that you pick up or throw away at a whim. It is nowadays basically the main framework of resistance against gross injustice, mass humiliation and rapacious imperialism.
Time: 6/10/2008, 7:33 pm
Islam in Central Asia is a result of Arab colonisation and imperalism so many centuries ago. So, does the passage of time make that Islamic conversion more correct than the Christian conversions we see today? Or, is it that religious conversion as a result of armed conquest is more palatable to you than religious conversion as a result of charitable work?
I am not Christian and I don’t appreciate it when anyone tries to convert me — and I’ve encountered both Christian and Muslim “missionaries” knocking on my door or stopping me on the street. Nevertheless, I don’t agree with this intolerance toward those who do choose a different faith.
Identity is something human beings create and define. In Kyrgyzstan (as in many other CA countries, I’m sure), there’s a continuing struggle over the definition of the Krygyz identity. Everyone tries to argue that their version of Kyrgyz identity is somehow organic, scientific, or immutable since the beginnings of time. And this is all complete rubbish. People seek to create a restrictive definition of national identity because they want power.
Kyrgyz who convert aren’t abandoning their communities (those who move to Russia and take Russian citizenship are abandoning their communities). Nor, is this conflict truly about “too much religious freedom”. It stems from people feeling powerless.
One of the dominant themes of Sangar’s comments is this notion of “humiliation.” For Americans, this term is more often used in reference to mistreatment or intimidation. But the way in which people I talked to in Kyrgyzstan used it, humiliation was about lack of power or being in a “low position”.
People who seek to change the parameters of national identity are challenging the power structure, and those in positions of power within the culture (imams, village elders) have little incentive to allow them to do so. Loss of power means humiliation, and in this way, Christian missionaries (or other foreigners with an agenda) can be seen as humiliating the local population.
This is not a conflict so much about religion as it is about control and submission.
Time: 6/11/2008, 4:53 am
First, that was a different cycle of history. Even if the liturgical language of Islam and its holy centres are (situated in the) Arabic (world) today you can no longer call Islam and ‘Arab’ or even Arab-dominated religion with Arabic constituting only some 30% of the Ummah and important dynamics today taking place outside of the Arab zone.
Second, the assumption that Islam was merely “imposed on the Central Asians by Arab warriors” by force is popular (e.g. among frustrated Iranian Pahlavi cronies in exile or dusty Soviet-shaped urban intelligentsia) but wrong. In part, this happened. Yet that is to under-estimate the role of the Islamic cities (Balkh, Bukhara-i-Sharif), of wandering Sufis and of the fact that for many Central Asians at the time, Islam was also a way to escape the caste system which was typical for these societies at the time.
Third, one forgets that the heydays of Central Asia were linked civilizations where Islam flourished: the Samanids and Gaznivids. In most other periods it was dire periphery.
“This is not a conflict so much about religion as it is about control and submission.”
That is very true, tictoc. I’m glad you understand that too. And in this war (which is what it is) it’s clear that Christian missionaries are supported by the oppressors (certain great powers and the local proxies funded by them as well as certain layers within the governments and intelligentsia) whereas Islam purified of gaga traditionalist and tribal hocus-pocus is the ideology of resistance and liberation.
You know, it makes me puke when I hear certain people saying that they’re against Islam because it “oppresses women” and “is intolerant” and blablabla. It’s all hypocrite as hell. Some believe that but they’re naïve and don’t realize what they’re into. But others do know. And in fact, they don’t give a dam about women’s rights and religious freedom and all that. What they want are obedient natives who are willing to be exploited and abused.
And this is my question to the Central Asian brothers and sisters: do you want to become that way?
Time: 6/12/2008, 12:48 am
The conflict I am referring to is a conflict WITHIN Central Asian societies over who will have control and the extent to which other members of these societies will have to submit. The imams, village elders, and others want to keep their control and tend to view anything less than complete submission as a threat.
Islam (in and of itself) isn’t an ideology of resistance and liberation. The word “islam” itself means submission. I think the form of Islam being proselytized today is an ideology of control and submission. For people who feel powerless, becoming more pure or more righteous than others (through control of the self and others in the name of submission to God) gives them a sense of superiority. That superiority gives them power. And this is why turning to a stricter form of Islam is so seductive to many people, especially young adults. It gives power, or at least a sense of it, to the powerless.
In Central Asian societies, people view control and submission as fundamental to the operation of society. The hierarchy is all-important. In contrast, the “underdog” is a recurring theme in American popular culture. The “underdog”, who by definition doesn’t have power or control, has popular appeal. When you argue that Christian missionaries or other “great powers” are oppressors who want to control, abuse and exploit natives, you are ascribing to them your own cultural beliefs; beliefs that are not part of their culture. In your worldview, those who refuse to submit must want control. In Western societies, a refusal to submit does not equal a desire to control. You see a war that doesn’t exist.
Christianity also has many adherents outside of Europe (where I assume you would place the center of the Christian world even though Christianity began elsewhere). There are more Christians in Africa, Asia, and Latin America (combined) than in North America and Europe (combined). So by your own logic, Christianity can no longer be considered a “Western” religion. And unlike Islam, the Christian bible isn’t tied to any one language.
You believe that Islamic conversion was more legitimate because “Islam was also a way to escape the caste system.” But, Christian converts today are also trying to escape a cultural system that doesn’t value them. This is the reason why “there are anecdotal data that many of those in Central Asia who do convert are marginalized to begin with.”
Young people in Central Asia today need to be wary of those who drape themselves in a cloak of nationalism or Islamic purity. They may be wolves in sheeps clothing who only desire power. It’s easy to distract people by yelling, “Look over there!” and blaming the foreign “imperialists”. It’s far more difficult to settle down to the difficult, slow, and complex work of building a country.
Time: 6/12/2008, 10:34 am
“Islam (in and of itself) isn’t an ideology of resistance and liberation. The word “islam” itself means submission.”
Islam indeed means submission… to God.
Don’t try to impress me that today there is science and so on. Islam and science are compatible as they were during the times of the great Islamic civilizations.
Mankind can achieve a lot but at a certian moment it can not explain and grasp the fundaments of being. Also, mankind and history are basically the theatre of a constant war between the good and evil in which man’s achievements are instrumentalized. Take teh desturction of nature
It does not means social submission. Many rotten practices that are often associated with Islam are not Islamic but tribal, tradionalist and feudal. That is why we have to de-tribalise Islam and go forward to the fundaments of the faith as they were laid down by the Prophet (s.a.a.w) and his companions.
In this respect there is one point where I agree with you and that is that traditionalist imams and gaga village elders get sidelined more and more because they are not part of the dynamics within Islam any more.
“Young people in Central Asia today need to be wary of those who drape themselves in a cloak of nationalism or Islamic purity. They may be wolves in sheeps clothing who only desire power.”
We can say exactly the same about those who preach ‘liberalism’ or at least pay lip service to it for the sake of getting USAID and EU grants. Again: all they’re out for is to turn the Central Asian youth into moronic parodies of Westerners, prostitutes and drug addicts for the sake of controling and humiliate them.
Time: 6/12/2008, 10:34 am
“Islam (in and of itself) isn’t an ideology of resistance and liberation. The word “islam” itself means submission.”
Islam indeed means submission… to God.
Don’t try to impress me that today there is science and so on. Islam and science are compatible as they were during the times of the great Islamic civilizations.
Mankind can achieve a lot but at a certian moment it can not explain and grasp the fundaments of being. Also, mankind and history are basically the theatre of a constant war between the good and evil in which man’s achievements are instrumentalized. Take teh desturction of nature
It does not means social submission. Many rotten practices that are often associated with Islam are not Islamic but tribal, tradionalist and feudal. That is why we have to de-tribalise Islam and go forward to the fundaments of the faith as they were laid down by the Prophet (s.a.a.w) and his companions.
In this respect there is one point where I agree with you and that is that traditionalist imams and gaga village elders get sidelined more and more because they are not part of the dynamics within Islam any more.
“Young people in Central Asia today need to be wary of those who drape themselves in a cloak of nationalism or Islamic purity. They may be wolves in sheeps clothing who only desire power.”
We can say exactly the same about those who preach ‘liberalism’ or at least pay lip service to it for the sake of getting USAID and EU grants. Again: all they’re out for is to turn the Central Asian youth into moronic parodies of Westerners, prostitutes and drug addicts for the sake of controling and humiliate them.
Time: 6/12/2008, 10:34 am
“Islam (in and of itself) isn’t an ideology of resistance and liberation. The word “islam” itself means submission.”
Islam indeed means submission… to God.
Don’t try to impress me that today there is science and so on. Islam and science are compatible as they were during the times of the great Islamic civilizations.
Mankind can achieve a lot but at a certian moment it can not explain and grasp the fundaments of being. Also, mankind and history are basically the theatre of a constant war between the good and evil in which man’s achievements are instrumentalized. Take teh desturction of nature
It does not means social submission. Many rotten practices that are often associated with Islam are not Islamic but tribal, tradionalist and feudal. That is why we have to de-tribalise Islam and go forward to the fundaments of the faith as they were laid down by the Prophet (s.a.a.w) and his companions.
In this respect there is one point where I agree with you and that is that traditionalist imams and gaga village elders get sidelined more and more because they are not part of the dynamics within Islam any more.
“Young people in Central Asia today need to be wary of those who drape themselves in a cloak of nationalism or Islamic purity. They may be wolves in sheeps clothing who only desire power.”
We can say exactly the same about those who preach ‘liberalism’ or at least pay lip service to it for the sake of getting USAID and EU grants. Again: all they’re out for is to turn the Central Asian youth into moronic parodies of Westerners, prostitutes and drug addicts for the sake of controling and humiliate them.
Time: 6/12/2008, 10:34 am
“Islam (in and of itself) isn’t an ideology of resistance and liberation. The word “islam” itself means submission.”
Islam indeed means submission… to God.
Don’t try to impress me that today there is science and so on. Islam and science are compatible as they were during the times of the great Islamic civilizations.
Mankind can achieve a lot but at a certian moment it can not explain and grasp the fundaments of being. Also, mankind and history are basically the theatre of a constant war between the good and evil in which man’s achievements are instrumentalized. Take teh desturction of nature
It does not means social submission. Many rotten practices that are often associated with Islam are not Islamic but tribal, tradionalist and feudal. That is why we have to de-tribalise Islam and go forward to the fundaments of the faith as they were laid down by the Prophet (s.a.a.w) and his companions.
In this respect there is one point where I agree with you and that is that traditionalist imams and gaga village elders get sidelined more and more because they are not part of the dynamics within Islam any more.
“Young people in Central Asia today need to be wary of those who drape themselves in a cloak of nationalism or Islamic purity. They may be wolves in sheeps clothing who only desire power.”
We can say exactly the same about those who preach ‘liberalism’ or at least pay lip service to it for the sake of getting USAID and EU grants. Again: all they’re out for is to turn the Central Asian youth into moronic parodies of Westerners, prostitutes and drug addicts for the sake of controling and humiliate them.
Time: 6/12/2008, 10:34 am
“Islam (in and of itself) isn’t an ideology of resistance and liberation. The word “islam” itself means submission.”
Islam indeed means submission… to God.
Don’t try to impress me that today there is science and so on. Islam and science are compatible as they were during the times of the great Islamic civilizations.
Mankind can achieve a lot but at a certian moment it can not explain and grasp the fundaments of being. Also, mankind and history are basically the theatre of a constant war between the good and evil in which man’s achievements are instrumentalized. Take teh desturction of nature
It does not means social submission. Many rotten practices that are often associated with Islam are not Islamic but tribal, tradionalist and feudal. That is why we have to de-tribalise Islam and go forward to the fundaments of the faith as they were laid down by the Prophet (s.a.a.w) and his companions.
In this respect there is one point where I agree with you and that is that traditionalist imams and gaga village elders get sidelined more and more because they are not part of the dynamics within Islam any more.
“Young people in Central Asia today need to be wary of those who drape themselves in a cloak of nationalism or Islamic purity. They may be wolves in sheeps clothing who only desire power.”
We can say exactly the same about those who preach ‘liberalism’ or at least pay lip service to it for the sake of getting USAID and EU grants. Again: all they’re out for is to turn the Central Asian youth into moronic parodies of Westerners, prostitutes and drug addicts for the sake of controling and humiliate them.
Time: 6/12/2008, 10:34 am
“Islam (in and of itself) isn’t an ideology of resistance and liberation. The word “islam” itself means submission.”
Islam indeed means submission… to God.
Don’t try to impress me that today there is science and so on. Islam and science are compatible as they were during the times of the great Islamic civilizations.
Mankind can achieve a lot but at a certian moment it can not explain and grasp the fundaments of being. Also, mankind and history are basically the theatre of a constant war between the good and evil in which man’s achievements are instrumentalized. Take teh desturction of nature
It does not means social submission. Many rotten practices that are often associated with Islam are not Islamic but tribal, tradionalist and feudal. That is why we have to de-tribalise Islam and go forward to the fundaments of the faith as they were laid down by the Prophet (s.a.a.w) and his companions.
In this respect there is one point where I agree with you and that is that traditionalist imams and gaga village elders get sidelined more and more because they are not part of the dynamics within Islam any more.
“Young people in Central Asia today need to be wary of those who drape themselves in a cloak of nationalism or Islamic purity. They may be wolves in sheeps clothing who only desire power.”
We can say exactly the same about those who preach ‘liberalism’ or at least pay lip service to it for the sake of getting USAID and EU grants. Again: all they’re out for is to turn the Central Asian youth into moronic parodies of Westerners, prostitutes and drug addicts for the sake of controling and humiliate them.
Time: 6/12/2008, 10:36 am
“Take teh desturction of nature”
Oops. Take the global destruction of nature out of bestial greed and the coming backlash that it will have. There mankind will realize what its limits are.
Time: 6/13/2008, 5:17 am
BTW, tictoc, Dolkun et alii: in case you think that I’m paranoid because I “see wars that do not exist” or that this idea that these Baptist and other Protestant sects are nothing but a tool of neo-colonial subjugation is a lone fallacy of mine, this might be interesting reading…
Протестантизм и католицизм в аспекте геополитики и постсоветское пространство (1990-е гг.)
http://islamrf.ru/articles.php?razdel=3&sid=1962
This is also a good one: Глобализация и Ислам
http://www.islamrf.ru/articles.php?razdel=3&sid=1173
(apparently, for some technical reason my pre-previous message was posted six times)
Time: 6/17/2008, 11:01 pm
Seems that all this discussion on “conversion from Islam” has lost sight of one important historical reality, thousands and thousands of Central Asians were Nestorian Christians BEFORE Islam became entrenched here. In fact there was a time when Christians and Muslims lived peacefully side-by-side in great cities like Samarkand and Kashgar.
So, i it a case of Central Asians “converting” to Christianity, or of them “returning” to one of the religions of their ancestors?
Time: 6/19/2008, 7:01 am
Good question Gene. I know that.
There are, however, ‘tiny’ differences between now and then. The kind of Christianity that is being propagated in Central Asia by Western and South Korean sects nowadays is even not remotely that of the historical Nestorian and other Syriac churches that used to exist in the region.
What we have today are well-funded, orchestrated sects that are connected to the neocon establishment in the US, in stark contrast to the Nestorian and other Syriac churches who often fled to Central Asia to escape persecution *by fellow Christians* in the Roman/Byzantine empire.
As such, the sects are part of a wider geopolitical agenda and that is not one of ‘diversity’, ‘tolerance’ and ‘faith freedom’ but about turning the Central Asians into obedient drones in what is a war between the West (the oppressors) and its local compradores, and Islam (the anti-imperialist resistance).
Time: 6/19/2008, 7:08 am
Now that we’re at it, a tipsy European diplomat in Bishkek once admitted to me that there is a co-ordinated plan to christianize KG and have a lilypad against Islam in the region.
Time: 6/3/2008, 4:24 am
In terms of absolute and relative numbers, the impact of the evangelist Christian missionaries is relatively limited. Certain research results (Peyrouse, Pelkmans) put the number of adepts at less than 1% of the population in KZ and about 1.5% in KG which in 15 years’ time is really a far cry from the 10 to 15% of the population in certain parts of Africa. The danger that they represent is especially related to their presence’s psychological impact, and this goes beyond the number of adepts. If fact, they are more dangerous than the Hizb-ut-Tahrir or Tabligh because they enjoy protection from certain embassies and even officials.
*First, very often they trick vulnerable people with humanitarian aid, help to orphanages (easy prey!) or things like English and computer courses and this compromise the bona fide social organisations (I saw personally how they managed to infiltrate youth projects funded by large international organisations in Osh and Batken).
*Second, brainwashing and sectarian abuses are galore.
*Third, is the present world climate they are simply irresponsible if not part of a larger design. Converting to a Christian sect from Islam is not a matter of ‘religious freedom’ like liberal twats like to blather. It is taking sides in a war against Islam and Muslims. As such, the sects create Christian-Muslim religious tension where there were none. The task of the Christian sects is to spread slave morals among the population of neo-colonies so that they can be subjugated, looted and exploited better.
Ironically, liberal NGOs who promote/encourage prostitution and homosexuality in KG and elsewhere work in the same logic.