Comments on: Kyrgyzstan Update http://www.registan.net/index.php/2005/03/07/4669/ Central Asia News -- All Central Asia, All The Time Sat, 20 Mar 2010 04:26:33 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9 hourly 1 By: RLG http://www.registan.net/index.php/2005/03/07/4669/comment-page-1/#comment-7327 RLG Tue, 08 Mar 2005 17:59:56 +0000 http://www.registan.net/?p=4669#comment-7327 As noted, the members of the Bush administration are not rushing to take credit for eruptions of democracy around the world, nor should they. The brave people who face the dangers coming from brutal dictators, who use force to silence dissent and imprison their critics, deserve the credit for demanding change and protesting bogus, rigged election results. They are the main ingredient for what is happening in their willingness to engage in protests against oppressive rulers the way people have throughout history. Sadly, their heroism has frequently been met with repression rather than change. This happened in Russia under the Tsars; it precipitated the French revolution when defenders of the King fired on peaceful protestors; the soldiers crushed the protestors in Tiananmen Square in China. But the “self-evident truths” proclaimed in the Declaration of Independence persist, and when people rise up in pursuit of freedom and justice, it’s good to see an American leader using the power and prestige of this great nation, seeking to be a “tipping point” that shifts the outcome in the direction of democracy. Just today, President Bush gave a major speech, again calling on the leaders of the world to take a stand supporting those who rise up in pursuit of their God-given rights. As noted, the members of the Bush administration are not rushing to take credit for eruptions of democracy around the world, nor should they. The brave people who face the dangers coming from brutal dictators, who use force to silence dissent and imprison their critics, deserve the credit for demanding change and protesting bogus, rigged election results. They are the main ingredient for what is happening in their willingness to engage in protests against oppressive rulers the way people have throughout history. Sadly, their heroism has frequently been met with repression rather than change. This happened in Russia under the Tsars; it precipitated the French revolution when defenders of the King fired on peaceful protestors; the soldiers crushed the protestors in Tiananmen Square in China.
But the “self-evident truths” proclaimed in the Declaration of Independence persist, and when people rise up in pursuit of freedom and justice, it’s good to see an American leader using the power and prestige of this great nation, seeking to be a “tipping point” that shifts the outcome in the direction of democracy. Just today, President Bush gave a major speech, again calling on the leaders of the world to take a stand supporting those who rise up in pursuit of their God-given rights.

]]> By: csh http://www.registan.net/index.php/2005/03/07/4669/comment-page-1/#comment-7321 csh Tue, 08 Mar 2005 16:52:25 +0000 http://www.registan.net/?p=4669#comment-7321 You know there are so many posts claiming that the U.S. only supports democracy and change in places where it has business interests. But if you really look at it, places where we have business interests are the ones that have at least some miniscule element of freedom. They may still be run by dictators and may violate their people's rights on so many levels you can't count them, but as long as their is some element of freedom, the U.S. tends to be patient. We try to wait it out, hoping there will be change internally as soon the economy grows enough to where people can think about something other than survival. The U.S. will always be bashed; whether we wait, or whether we rush in. But in the end, when it gets too bad to suffer any longer, we will step in and impact the situation. As it was said before going into Iraq, "We're going to shake it up and see how it settles". So far, I like the way it's beginning to settle. You know there are so many posts claiming that the U.S. only supports democracy and change in places where it has business interests. But if you really look at it, places where we have business interests are the ones that have at least some miniscule element of freedom. They may still be run by dictators and may violate their people’s rights on so many levels you can’t count them, but as long as their is some element of freedom, the U.S. tends to be patient. We try to wait it out, hoping there will be change internally as soon the economy grows enough to where people can think about something other than survival.

The U.S. will always be bashed; whether we wait, or whether we rush in. But in the end, when it gets too bad to suffer any longer, we will step in and impact the situation. As it was said before going into Iraq, “We’re going to shake it up and see how it settles”. So far, I like the way it’s beginning to settle.

]]> By: The Conjecturer » Blog Archive » Domino Theory Update http://www.registan.net/index.php/2005/03/07/4669/comment-page-1/#comment-7307 The Conjecturer » Blog Archive » Domino Theory Update Tue, 08 Mar 2005 05:11:13 +0000 http://www.registan.net/?p=4669#comment-7307 [...] . Forces in the Dark | Main Page | Domino Theory Update Kyrgyzstan in Chaos. Also, pressure for Kyrgyz president to resign. Was Bush Right? Azerbaijan election moveme [...] [...] . Forces in the Dark | Main Page |

Domino Theory Update

Kyrgyzstan in Chaos. Also, pressure for Kyrgyz president to resign. Was Bush Right? Azerbaijan election moveme [...]

]]> By: Nathan http://www.registan.net/index.php/2005/03/07/4669/comment-page-1/#comment-7306 Nathan Tue, 08 Mar 2005 03:40:00 +0000 http://www.registan.net/?p=4669#comment-7306 Heck, I overstate points all the time. I'm from one of the more cowboy parts of America after all. I understand the caution and those of us who like to jump into action need others to voice doubts. The Bush administration's democratization policy is routinely mischaracterized and continues to be even by those who are now wondering if there's something to it after all (the article from <i>Der Spiegel</i> continues to misunderstand it I think). And, I don't think it will really be understood by most until there's some hindsight--hindsight that those like Claus Christian Malzahn are just now starting to get. Bush is a fairly modest person with a simple and well-founded faith in the power of human liberty. I've yet to hear anyone within the administration take direct and significant credit for the recent upsurge in democratic protests--only supporters (and, truth be told, I don't watch TV news, so if anyone is not giving credit where it's due, they're wrong in misplacing credit). And honestly, I think events are unfolding much quicker than Bush had anticipated, indicating that there's much more pent up desire for liberty than any of us optimists had expected. It'll be a rocky path, but it's one well worth travelling and I for one am happy that the terms of the debate have shifted. Heck, I overstate points all the time. I’m from one of the more cowboy parts of America after all. I understand the caution and those of us who like to jump into action need others to voice doubts.

The Bush administration’s democratization policy is routinely mischaracterized and continues to be even by those who are now wondering if there’s something to it after all (the article from Der Spiegel continues to misunderstand it I think). And, I don’t think it will really be understood by most until there’s some hindsight–hindsight that those like Claus Christian Malzahn are just now starting to get. Bush is a fairly modest person with a simple and well-founded faith in the power of human liberty.

I’ve yet to hear anyone within the administration take direct and significant credit for the recent upsurge in democratic protests–only supporters (and, truth be told, I don’t watch TV news, so if anyone is not giving credit where it’s due, they’re wrong in misplacing credit). And honestly, I think events are unfolding much quicker than Bush had anticipated, indicating that there’s much more pent up desire for liberty than any of us optimists had expected. It’ll be a rocky path, but it’s one well worth travelling and I for one am happy that the terms of the debate have shifted.

]]> By: Publius Pundit - Blogging the democratic revolution http://www.registan.net/index.php/2005/03/07/4669/comment-page-1/#comment-7301 Publius Pundit - Blogging the democratic revolution Tue, 08 Mar 2005 02:30:16 +0000 http://www.registan.net/?p=4669#comment-7301 [...] 221; said Kurmanov. And just in the nick of time, Nathan is back from vacation. He has a huge news roundup . Robert Mayer @ 7:30 pm | No comments for EMERGENCY SESSION [...] [...] 221; said Kurmanov. And just in the nick of time, Nathan is back from vacation. He has a huge news roundup .

Robert Mayer @ 7:30 pm |

No comments for EMERGENCY SESSION [...]

]]> By: Ben http://www.registan.net/index.php/2005/03/07/4669/comment-page-1/#comment-7299 Ben Tue, 08 Mar 2005 01:46:57 +0000 http://www.registan.net/?p=4669#comment-7299 Well, I see your point, Nathan. Of course, tipping point analysis is a science on its own account. The US administration's debate on democratisation might be added to the factors, but should not stand as <i>the</i> prime cause for the recently witnessed wave of 'people's power' in the Middle East. That would simply dishonour the people risking their lives on the streets as you say. Interestingly, Germany's <i>Der Spiegel</i>, so often tremendously critical of US policy, runs a story on that from a German perspective - and argues quite eloquently for a further spread of 'George W. Bush's Infectious Virus', which they dub: 'Democracy at the Tip of a Sword'. Worth reading I think (it's in English...) http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,344679,00.html As far Kyrgyzstan (again) is concerned, I can only recall my time in Bishkek. Freedom House is to my knowledge in constant contact with the American embassy over its actions. I allege that the decision to uphold the printing of "MSN" had been crosschecked with Ambassador Young before. On this side of the coin, that already shows a clear commitment; maybe part of an overall strategy, maybe not. My comment might hence have been a bit too strong. But - and I hope you can excuse that - after all I'm from good old Europe and tend to be cautious when it comes to things like that ;) Ben Well, I see your point, Nathan.

Of course, tipping point analysis is a science on its own account. The US administration’s debate on democratisation might be added to the factors, but should not stand as the prime cause for the recently witnessed wave of ‘people’s power’ in the Middle East. That would simply dishonour the people risking their lives on the streets as you say.

Interestingly, Germany’s Der Spiegel, so often tremendously critical of US policy, runs a story on that from a German perspective – and argues quite eloquently for a further spread of ‘George W. Bush’s Infectious Virus’, which they dub: ‘Democracy at the Tip of a Sword’. Worth reading I think (it’s in English…)

http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,344679,00.html

As far Kyrgyzstan (again) is concerned, I can only recall my time in Bishkek. Freedom House is to my knowledge in constant contact with the American embassy over its actions. I allege that the decision to uphold the printing of “MSN” had been crosschecked with Ambassador Young before. On this side of the coin, that already shows a clear commitment; maybe part of an overall strategy, maybe not.

My comment might hence have been a bit too strong. But – and I hope you can excuse that – after all I’m from good old Europe and tend to be cautious when it comes to things like that ;)

Ben

]]> By: Nathan http://www.registan.net/index.php/2005/03/07/4669/comment-page-1/#comment-7295 Nathan Tue, 08 Mar 2005 01:02:56 +0000 http://www.registan.net/?p=4669#comment-7295 There certainly is some over-appropriation and the credit should rightly sit with those who are putting themselves at risk and doing the fighting. However, the United States has shifted the terms of the debate in a pretty significant and important way. The Bush administration has also lent rhetorical support in many of these places. Though it's difficult to quantify, it <i>is</i> important. In other words, it's been one of the factors helping <a href="http://techcentralstation.com/030705G.html" rel="nofollow">preference cascades</a> to tear back the veil and spring forth. And while I'd agree that Kyrgyz protesters probably aren't taking courage from the administration's words, I'm sure it is emboldened by the administration sticking to its words in some important cases. Hell, I've seen some criticize the administration for taking actions that embolden democracy activists. The Bush administration has been a small factor, but even a small factor can play a decisive role, though I would only say that it arguably has in the case of Georgia. There certainly is some over-appropriation and the credit should rightly sit with those who are putting themselves at risk and doing the fighting. However, the United States has shifted the terms of the debate in a pretty significant and important way. The Bush administration has also lent rhetorical support in many of these places. Though it’s difficult to quantify, it is important. In other words, it’s been one of the factors helping preference cascades to tear back the veil and spring forth.

And while I’d agree that Kyrgyz protesters probably aren’t taking courage from the administration’s words, I’m sure it is emboldened by the administration sticking to its words in some important cases. Hell, I’ve seen some criticize the administration for taking actions that embolden democracy activists.

The Bush administration has been a small factor, but even a small factor can play a decisive role, though I would only say that it arguably has in the case of Georgia.

]]> By: Ben http://www.registan.net/index.php/2005/03/07/4669/comment-page-1/#comment-7294 Ben Tue, 08 Mar 2005 00:41:46 +0000 http://www.registan.net/?p=4669#comment-7294 I disagree with the points put forward by 'RLG': Analysing events in Kyrgyzstan and Lebanon by asking "...how much is due to America’s President Bush being willing to take a firm stand in favor of freedom and against dictators" seems somewhat dubious to me. "Transition Trends" (http://blogs.tol.cz/trends/) has made a valid point on the misappropriation of the Lebanese events by the US. As for Kyrgyzstan, I would dismiss any such claim that current demonstrators take much of their courage from Bush's words on freedom, democracy, etc. That's a bit too far-fetched I think. Also, the US commitment didn't bring about fair elections in the Ukraine - they were as you say due to a combination of factors, most of which I see as home-grown, though. Ben I disagree with the points put forward by ‘RLG’: Analysing events in Kyrgyzstan and Lebanon by asking “…how much is due to America’s President Bush being willing to take a firm stand in favor of freedom and against dictators” seems somewhat dubious to me.

“Transition Trends” (http://blogs.tol.cz/trends/) has made a valid point on the misappropriation of the Lebanese events by the US.

As for Kyrgyzstan, I would dismiss any such claim that current demonstrators take much of their courage from Bush’s words on freedom, democracy, etc. That’s a bit too far-fetched I think.

Also, the US commitment didn’t bring about fair elections in the Ukraine – they were as you say due to a combination of factors, most of which I see as home-grown, though.

Ben

]]> By: Nathan http://www.registan.net/index.php/2005/03/07/4669/comment-page-1/#comment-7291 Nathan Mon, 07 Mar 2005 23:44:44 +0000 http://www.registan.net/?p=4669#comment-7291 Well, time for the 800 pound gorilla to step in here. Comments don't normally get into broad ideological arguments around here. It's not that we discourage it or anything, it's just that it normally doesn't happen. While I disagree with Robert, there's no reason to call him a "traitor," a "loser," or a hater of freedom. He's got a different point of view. You're free to disagree, but the policy around here is to do it with respect and evidence. I typically just delete what I wouldn't want to see or hear in my own home and leave it at that, so consider this a warning. Well, time for the 800 pound gorilla to step in here. Comments don’t normally get into broad ideological arguments around here. It’s not that we discourage it or anything, it’s just that it normally doesn’t happen.

While I disagree with Robert, there’s no reason to call him a “traitor,” a “loser,” or a hater of freedom. He’s got a different point of view. You’re free to disagree, but the policy around here is to do it with respect and evidence. I typically just delete what I wouldn’t want to see or hear in my own home and leave it at that, so consider this a warning.

]]> By: Miguel http://www.registan.net/index.php/2005/03/07/4669/comment-page-1/#comment-7285 Miguel Mon, 07 Mar 2005 22:36:39 +0000 http://www.registan.net/?p=4669#comment-7285 As usual. Bush can not do anything ok. Iraquis, Lebanese, Kyrguiz, lots of people praise Bush for his accomplishments in furthering freedom, but you find the typical American traitors, not only to their country, but to the human race, because they get so angry at the wave of freedom that is sweeping the world now. But, all they are getting from the rest of the world, specially the people benefited by this surge towards freedom, is despise and scorn. Those traitors to liberty are dead-set against History...and will end up in the dustbin of history. I'm not American, but I'd tell everybody the same if I was: never mind those traitors to their country and to the human race, freedom is going to win in the end, whether they like it or not. Must be a drag to be such a loser, to side with the worst kind of human beings, like dictators and repressors, just out of a stupid and infantile hatred for Bush and all the beautiful things he represents. Must be a drag to hate freedom just because you hate the people that help bringing in about. Must be a drag to hate Bush now that he's having such huge successes. Must be like hating Reagan in 1989 lol. Poor decieved fools. As usual. Bush can not do anything ok. Iraquis, Lebanese, Kyrguiz, lots of people praise Bush for his accomplishments in furthering freedom, but you find the typical American traitors, not only to their country, but to the human race, because they get so angry at the wave of freedom that is sweeping the world now. But, all they are getting from the rest of the world, specially the people benefited by this surge towards freedom, is despise and scorn. Those traitors to liberty are dead-set against History…and will end up in the dustbin of history. I’m not American, but I’d tell everybody the same if I was: never mind those traitors to their country and to the human race, freedom is going to win in the end, whether they like it or not. Must be a drag to be such a loser, to side with the worst kind of human beings, like dictators and repressors, just out of a stupid and infantile hatred for Bush and all the beautiful things he represents. Must be a drag to hate freedom just because you hate the people that help bringing in about. Must be a drag to hate Bush now that he’s having such huge successes. Must be like hating Reagan in 1989 lol. Poor decieved fools.

]]>